Uncle Bob Martin: AI Driven Development - Episode 419

章节 1：Uncle Bob 谈 AI 编程现状与编程史

📝 本节摘要：

本期节目邀请敏捷宣言合著者 Robert C. Martin（Uncle Bob）探讨 AI 驱动开发。他回顾了自己从 12 岁起对计算机潜力的痴迷，并澄清其最新著作《We Programmers》是一部面向程序员的软件历史书。针对当前 AI 编程工具（如 Opus、Cursor）带来的“认知冲击”，Bob 分享了他从年初对 AI 代码生成持怀疑态度，到如今重新审视其价值的转变过程，分析了编程领域的最新变化。

[原文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: AI driven development with uncle Bob Martin. The AI DevOps podcast is a show for those shipping software using AI, Dot, net, Azure and DevOps. Each show brings you hard hitting interviews with industry experts, innovating better methods, and sharing success stories. Sponsoring the podcast is Clear Measure, a software, architecture and engineering firm that implements AI to empower software teams to establish quality, achieve stability and increase speed. And now your host, Geoffrey Palermo. Welcome to the show. I'm Geoffrey Palermo, your host, for helping you and your team's new fast and deliver quality and to run your software with confidence in Azure, all while using everything that AI and Azure and the.

[译文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: 与“马丁叔叔”（Uncle Bob Martin）探讨 AI 驱动开发。《AI DevOps 播客》是一档面向使用 AI、.NET、Azure 和 DevOps 交付软件的从业者的节目。每期节目都会带来与行业专家的深度访谈，分享创新方法以及成功案例。本播客由 Clear Measure 赞助，这是一家软件架构与工程公司，致力于实施 AI 技术，赋能软件团队建立质量、实现稳定性并提升速度。现在，有请您的主持人，杰弗里·帕尔默（Geoffrey Palermo）。欢迎来到本期节目。我是杰弗里·帕尔默，您的主持人，致力于帮助您和您的团队快速交付高质量软件，并在 Azure 上自信地运行软件，同时充分利用 AI 和 Azure 以及……

[原文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: Net ecosystem has to offer. Today I'm joined by Robert C. Martin, most known most of the industry as Uncle Bob. He's been a programmer since the 1970s. He's a co-author of the Agile Manifesto and the first chairman of the Agile Alliance, and he's the founder of Uncle Bob Consulting. He's written a lot of books that have defined parts of the industry, like Clean Code and Clean Architecture, Clean, Agile, and his newest release, Functional Design. And lately, he's been deep into a project called Swarm Forge, an open source tool that he built for coordinating teams of AI coding agents.

[译文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: .NET 生态系统所能提供的。今天与我同台的是 Robert C. Martin，业界大多称他为“鲍勃叔叔”。他自 20 世纪 70 年代起就是一名程序员。他是《敏捷宣言》的联署人之一，也是敏捷联盟的首任主席，同时也是鲍勃叔叔咨询公司的创始人。他撰写了许多定义了行业部分领域的书籍，如《代码整洁之道》（Clean Code）和《架构整洁之道》（Clean Architecture）、《敏捷整洁之道》（Clean, Agile），以及他最新出版的《函数式设计》（Functional Design）。最近，他正深入参与一个名为 Swarm Forge 的项目，这是他构建的一个开源工具，用于协调 AI 编码智能体团队。

[原文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: And this is actually Bob's fourth time on the show. And so I'm excited to have him back. Welcome. How are you, sir?

[译文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: 这实际上是鲍勃第四次做客本节目。所以我很高兴他能回来。欢迎。您还好吗，先生？

[原文] [Robert C. Martin]: I am very well, thank you. How are you?

[译文] [Robert C. Martin]: 我很好，谢谢。你怎么样？

[原文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: I'm good, I'm good. You know, most of the listeners have listened to one of your previous episodes, but getting new listeners all the time and for, you know, the young programmers who are still learning about the history of everything that's happened over the decades. I would like to ask an opening question. If you could kind of go back in time and evaluate what is it about making computers do interesting things that is kind of captured your imagination and kept you engaged all these years?

[译文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: 我很好，很好。你知道，大多数听众都听过你之前的某一期节目，但我们一直在获得新听众，而且对于那些仍在了解过去几十年所发生的一切历史的年轻程序员来说……我想问一个开场问题。如果你能回到过去，评估一下，究竟是什么让计算机做有趣的事情这一行为激发了你的想象力，并让你在这些年里一直保持投入？

[原文] [Robert C. Martin]: You know, it started when I was 12. My mother bought me a little plastic computer, called a Digital Comp One, three-bit, six gates, all mechanical. And it fascinated me. And I realized from a very early age, you know, age 12 on, that a computer can do anything. That was the way I thought about it. And, you know, people back then would ask me, well, you're interested in computers. What can computers do? And my answer was, well, they can do anything. Yeah. Well, can they fly a plane?

[译文] [Robert C. Martin]: 你知道，这一切始于我 12 岁那年。我妈妈给我买了一台小小的塑料电脑，叫 Digital Comp One，三位，六个门，全是机械结构。它让我着迷。从很小的时候起，你知道，从 12 岁开始，我就意识到计算机可以做任何事情。我当时就是这么想的。你知道，那时候人们会问我：哦，你对电脑感兴趣。那电脑能做什么呢？而我的回答是：哦，它们能做任何事情。是的。那么，它们能驾驶飞机吗？

[原文] [Robert C. Martin]: Yeah, I think they could probably fly a plane. Yeah, they drive a car. Yeah, I think they could probably drive a car. So I always had that view from very early on that, you know, the computer was a blank slate and I could get it to do anything. And the only issue then was to solve the problem of what anything was. And that has fascinated me to this day. Yeah. And the plane and the cars and we're seeing it do it. Yeah. Well those are kind of solid problems now we've got more interesting problems to solve.

[译文] [Robert C. Martin]: 是的，我认为它们可能真的能驾驶飞机。是的，它们会开车。是的，我认为它们可能真的能开车。所以从很早以前开始，我就一直持有这样的观点：计算机是一张白纸，我可以让它做任何事情。而当时唯一的问题就是解决“任何事情”具体指什么。这一点直到今天依然让我着迷。是的。关于飞机和汽车，我们正看到它们做到这一点。是的。嗯，那些现在算是比较确定的问题了，我们有了更有趣的问题需要解决。

[原文] [Robert C. Martin]: By the way, I wanted to correct you on one thing. My latest release is a book called We Programmers, which is about the history of software. And it starts with back in with Babich, and then it goes into Grace Hopper and Dennis Ritchie and John Backus and a whole bunch of people. So it's a history of programming written for programmers. So I don't spare any of the technical stuff. You know, you want to know what a Univac one was like to program. I can put some code in the book and show you what it was like and go through the technical details.

[译文] [Robert C. Martin]: 顺便说一句，我想纠正你一点。我最近出版的书叫《我们程序员》，内容是关于软件历史的。它从巴比奇开始，然后讲到格蕾丝·霍珀、丹尼斯·里奇、约翰·巴克斯以及一大批其他人。所以这是一本为程序员编写的编程史。因此，我不会省略任何技术细节。你知道，如果你想知道在 Univac I 上编程是什么感觉，我可以在书中放一些代码，向你展示当时的情况，并深入讲解技术细节。

[原文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: So that's a fun book that goes back in time and looks at who we were back then and what we are becoming today. Nice, nice. But we'll include a link to that in the show notes. That's exciting. Yeah. Well, a lot has changed since I've had you on the show last, and I think between November and January, so many people are talking about their opus moment where they realize, wait a minute. This isn't just a chat bot. It's I can. And then just like wow, in the mind is blown.

[译文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: 那是一本有趣的书，它回顾过去，审视我们当时的样子以及我们正在成为的样子。很好，很好。我们会在节目简介中包含该书的链接。这令人兴奋。是的。自上次邀请你上节目以来，很多事情都发生了变化。我认为在十一月到一月之间，很多人在谈论他们的“Opus时刻”，在那一刻他们意识到：等等，这不仅仅是一个聊天机器人。我可以……然后就是那种“哇”的感觉，思维被彻底颠覆了。

[原文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: And then of course, we've had so many releases since then and, and even this, this past month with Babel 5.1 and Astra and, and even the, the Grok in the space and the Cursor. So, so much has changed. And the conversation last year was very, very different. And so I just wanted to kind of open it up. How do you see computer programming right now with just the current state? And what do you find as, oh wow, this is now normal, as opposed to what it could be?

[译文] [Geoffrey Palermo]: 当然，从那以后我们发布了这么多版本，甚至就在过去这个月，还有 Babel 5.1 和 Astra，以及该领域的 Grok 和 Cursor。变化真的很大。去年的对话内容截然不同。所以我想借此机会展开话题。鉴于目前的状态，你如何看待当下的计算机编程？你认为哪些事情让你感叹‘哇，这现在竟然成了常态’，而它们本可以不是这样的？

[原文] [Robert C. Martin]: Yeah. So I don't remember when we spoke last. It was, if it was last year, I started to investigate. AI is, late last year, and back then, it wasn't real impressive. You know, you could get a chat on the web to generate a little bit of code that you could copy and paste into your IDE, and it wasn't great. And I had a few positive, few negative experiences. And I was pretty down on the whole thing. I thought, this is never going to go anywhere. Yeah.

[译文] [Robert C. Martin]: 是的。所以我不记得我们上次是什么时候聊天的了。如果是去年的话，我开始去研究。AI 是去年晚些时候的事，而当时它并不真正令人印象深刻。你知道，你可以从网上的聊天机器人那里生成一点代码，然后复制粘贴到你的 IDE 中，但效果并不好。我有一些积极的体验，也有一些消极的体验。而且我对整个事情持相当悲观的态度。我想，这东西永远不会有前途。是的。