Mark Zuckerberg on how Meta's Muse AI agent will make people money

章节 1：扎克伯格谈AI普及：赋能个人、开源与权力制衡

📝 本节摘要：

主持人从扎克伯格近期的长篇宣言谈起。扎克伯格认为，要让AI带来积极的未来，就应广泛普及这项技术，并提出三大原则：赋能个人是繁荣之源，AI首要用于发明而非自动化，安全依靠制衡而非限制访问。他批评少数实验室囤积先进模型却不发布，强调多家实验室并存与健全的开源生态有利于竞争、透明和安全，并以网络安全和Hugging Face遭入侵为例加以说明。他还介绍了Muse Spark 1.3、即将推出的watermelon及Muse个人智能体。

[原文] [Alex Heath]: Mark, last time we spoke, you called me. It was on the weekend. Well, you called me through the glasses, which was the interesting part.

[译文] [Alex Heath]: Mark，我们上次聊的时候，是你给我打的电话，那天是周末。准确地说，你是用眼镜给我打的，这才是有意思的地方。

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: Was it loud in the background?

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 当时背景很吵吗？

[原文] [Alex Heath]: You were... You were going to fish. I wasn't going to say it, but yeah, it was on the weekend.

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 你当时……你当时正要去钓鱼。我本来不打算说的，不过没错，那天是周末。

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: The noise cancellation actually is pretty good.

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 其实降噪效果挺不错的。

[原文] [Alex Heath]: Oh, it's great.

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 哦，效果很好。

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: Yeah, it's great.

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 是啊，很好。

[原文] [Alex Heath]: Yeah. I mean,

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 对。我是说，

[原文] [Alex Heath]: yeah. But you wanted to talk about this essay, manifesto. I don't know what you call it. Manifesto, we'll say,

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 嗯。不过你想聊聊这篇文章，或者说宣言。我不知道你管它叫什么，我们就叫它宣言吧，

[原文] [Alex Heath]: that you published recently, and it's long. I mean, I'll caveat, but there's a lot in it. And I wanted to start there because there's a lot of big ideas in there, and they'll connect to kind of the main thing we're talking about today.

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 就是你最近发表的那篇，篇幅很长。我得先说明一下，里面内容很多。我想从这里聊起，因为里面有很多宏大的想法，而且和我们今天要聊的主题也有关联。

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: Yeah.

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 好。

[原文] [Alex Heath]: I'm curious, like, why write that? Because it's long. There's a lot in there.

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 我很好奇，你为什么要写这篇东西？因为它真的很长，内容很多。

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: Well, yeah. Well, I feel like if you're going to invest so much in building AI, then it's important that people understand what your lab stands for and what your values are. And basically, AI has so many opportunities, but there are also all these real risks. So, I think it's very important that everyone who's working on it has a well-thought-out theory for how the work that they're going to do is going to lead to a positive future. You know, it's interesting because, I mean, the different labs have some different philosophies on this, and there's, you know, a lot of things that I think have become conventional wisdom in the industry that I just strongly disagree with. And, you know, my view on this is that the path to have a positive future for everyone is to make sure that we distribute the technology

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 嗯，是的。我觉得，如果你要在构建AI上投入这么多，那就有必要让人们了解你的实验室代表什么、秉持什么价值观。说到底，AI蕴含着巨大的机遇，但也确实存在种种风险。所以我认为，每个从事这项工作的人都应该有一套深思熟虑的理论，说明自己的工作将如何通向一个积极的未来。你知道，这件事挺有意思，因为各家实验室在这个问题上理念各不相同，而且业内有很多已经成为共识的观点，我是强烈反对的。在我看来，让所有人都拥有积极未来的路径，就是确保我们把这项技术

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: as widely as possible. And that's based on three major principles that we have. One is that empowering people is the source of prosperity in the world, and it has been throughout history. Two is that the primary purpose for AI is going to be invention of new things, not automation. And then the third principle is that the foundation for safety for the future is basically establishing the right checks and balances and balance of power, rather than restricting access. And I think that these are all things that, oddly, are kind of very different from a lot of the conventional wisdom, especially in Silicon Valley. A lot of people think, hey, this technology is very powerful, we must restrict it so that way not that many people have access to it. I personally am much more worried about a small number of labs or people having

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 尽可能广泛地普及出去。这基于我们的三大原则。第一，赋能个人是世界繁荣的源泉，纵观历史一直如此。第二，AI的首要用途将是发明新事物，而不是自动化。第三，未来安全的根基，本质上在于建立恰当的制衡机制和权力平衡，而不是限制访问。说来也怪，我觉得这些观点和许多主流共识都大相径庭，尤其是在硅谷。很多人认为，这项技术威力太大，必须加以限制，不能让太多人接触到。而我个人更担心的是，少数实验室或少数人

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: control of something that is so capable. And I think that throughout history, what we found is that when you put power in people's hands, most advances don't come from the incumbents or the establishment. They come from people on the periphery whose ideas aren't taken seriously. But when they get enough tools to basically be able to prove out what they're working on, that ends up being very powerful. In Western society, the way that we've established governance and basically having a well-balanced society is through a set of checks and balances, right? And this balance of power. It's very ingrained in kind of our society that you don't want to have, you know, one lab or two labs having access to a thing. For some of the most recent concerns that have come up, like some of these cyber

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 掌控如此强大的东西。纵观历史，我们发现，当你把力量交到人们手中时，大多数进步并不是来自既得利益者或建制派，而是来自那些处在边缘、想法不被重视的人。一旦他们拥有足够的工具来证明自己的探索，就会迸发出巨大的能量。在西方社会，我们建立治理体系、维持社会均衡的方式，靠的就是一整套制衡机制，对吧？也就是这种权力平衡。我们的社会根深蒂固地认为，不应该让某样东西只掌握在一两家实验室手里。至于最近出现的一些担忧，比如某些网络

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: security concerns, I think the best antidote to someone having an AI that could potentially hack into systems is having everyone have access to an AI so they can harden their own systems first. And that's kind of been the history of cybersecurity over the past several decades, is that, you know, open source software, because people can see it and can scrutinize it, sort of counterintuitively, by putting it in people's hands, you end up with a more secure and more stable environment. So that's what I believe, and that's what I think is the path to a positive future, is basically distributing the technology. That has a bunch of different implications for what we're going to do. I mean, obviously we want to build leading AI models, which we're doing, and Muse Spark 1.3, which we just released, it's

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 安全方面的担忧，我认为，要应对有人掌握可能入侵系统的AI，最好的解药就是让每个人都能用上AI，这样他们就能先加固自己的系统。过去几十年的网络安全史基本就是这样：开源软件因为人人都能看到、都能审查，有点反直觉的是，把它交到大家手里，反而会带来更安全、更稳定的环境。这就是我的信念，我认为通往积极未来的路径，本质上就是普及这项技术。这对我们接下来要做的事有多方面的影响。显然，我们要打造领先的AI模型，我们也正在这么做。我们刚发布的Muse Spark 1.3，它

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: advanced, but then, you know, it's actually the latest model of a relatively smaller pre-train that we did, the internal code name avocado

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 很先进，不过它其实是我们一次规模相对较小的预训练所产出的最新模型，内部代号叫 avocado（牛油果）

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: and

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 然后

[原文] [Alex Heath]: Oh, we're going to get into the code...

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 哦，我们要聊到代号了……

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: Oh yeah, we'll get into that. And we have watermelon coming soon, so that's going to be a big deal. So obviously leading models. Probably the biggest personification of, you know, if you will, or kind of implementation of this vision is the Muse personal agent that we're rolling out. Basically, the idea there is give every person in the world a very capable personal agent that can understand their goals and can just work on their behalf 24/7. And then an important part of this is also just getting the technology in people's hands. We're very kind of strong proponents of open source, and making sure that the opportunities that I think are going to be massive here are not just limited to a few people or companies.

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 哦对，我们会聊到的。我们的 watermelon（西瓜）也快要来了，那会是一件大事。所以，领先的模型是一方面。而这一愿景最大的化身，或者说最具体的落地，大概就是我们正在推出的 Muse 个人智能体。基本思路是，给世界上每一个人配备一个能力很强的个人智能体，它能理解你的目标，全天候不间断地替你工作。另外，其中很重要的一点就是把技术交到人们手中。我们是开源的坚定支持者，要确保这里将会出现的巨大机遇不只局限于少数人或少数公司。

[原文] [Alex Heath]: This episode is brought to you by Mercury, AI-

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 本期节目由 Mercury 赞助播出，这是一家 AI

[原文] [Alex Heath]: native banking that's loved by more than 300,000 entrepreneurs, including me. Visit mercury.com to learn more. Mercury is a fintech, not a bank. Check the show notes for details. Thanks also to Granola, the AI notepad for people in back-to-back meetings. It works everywhere you do and lets you focus on what matters. Try it at granola.ai/sources and use the code SOURCES for three months off. This episode is also brought to you by Jira by Atlassian, where teams and agents get the context, coordination, and control to move work forward. Try it free at jira.com. That's J-I-R-A dot com.

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 原生的银行服务，深受超过 30 万创业者喜爱，我也是其中之一。访问 mercury.com 了解更多。Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，而非银行，详情请见节目说明。同时感谢 Granola，这是一款专为连轴开会的人打造的 AI 记事本，你在哪儿工作它就能在哪儿用，让你专注于真正重要的事。访问 granola.ai/sources 试用，输入优惠码 SOURCES 可免三个月费用。本期节目还由 Atlassian 旗下的 Jira 赞助播出，它让团队和智能体获得推进工作所需的上下文、协同与掌控。前往 jira.com 免费试用，网址是 J-I-R-A 点 com。

[原文] [Alex Heath]: I have a bunch of questions about the Muse Agent, but staying big picture for a second, because you said a lot of things there. Is open source the counter to the trend you're seeing, that you described, that you're worried about? Is that the main way, practically, that you counter that, or is it regulation? Is it both? Like—

[译文] [Alex Heath]: 关于 Muse 智能体（Muse Agent）我有一堆问题，不过先在宏观层面多聊一会儿，因为你刚才讲了很多。你描述并担忧的那种趋势，开源是对抗它的办法吗？这是你在实践中应对它的主要方式，还是靠监管？还是两者都有？比如——

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: No, I actually think probably the most important thing is actually just getting the technology in individuals' hands. So I actually think things like the Muse personal agent are perhaps even more important. I mean, I think what you're starting to see is some of the labs are building, training more advanced models and then not even releasing them. Right.

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 不，我其实认为最重要的可能就是把技术交到每个人手里。所以我觉得像 Muse 个人智能体这样的东西也许更加重要。我是说，你现在开始看到，一些实验室在构建、训练更先进的模型，然后干脆不发布。对吧。

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: Right. So, I think that that is quite dangerous, in the sense that, you know, basically when you have scrutiny on something, when you put a system out there, first of all, if you put it in a lot of people's hands, you get the checks and balances, you get broad-based prosperity, which I think is important, right, for society. We can't just have, like, one or two labs get incredibly valuable. You know, I think you want to make it so that billions of people can basically have prosperity in their own lives, whether it's creating small businesses, being more successful in their careers, being more productive and managing their homes, saving money in a lot of ways, kind of advancing their health. So I think you want the benefits to be very broad-based. So that's one piece.

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 对。所以我认为这相当危险，因为你知道，当一样东西受到审视、当你把一个系统推向外界时，首先，如果你把它交到很多人手里，就能形成制衡，就能带来普惠的繁荣，我认为这对社会很重要，对吧。不能只让一两家实验室变得价值连城。我觉得应该让数十亿人都能在自己的生活中获得繁荣，无论是创办小企业、在职业上更成功、更高效地打理家庭、在各方面省钱，还是改善健康。所以我认为好处应该惠及非常广泛的人群。这是一方面。

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: In terms of the competition, I do think that having multiple labs is helpful, and I think open source is quite helpful for that. So I think open source is an important part of it. The nature of open source is there's a whole community of people who do it. So I'm not saying that we're going to be the one company that does it. I'm also not, like, a zealot about this, from the perspective that, you know, it's not that everything we do is open source either, right? We release some open models. We do some closed work. I think it's important, if you're building a for-profit company, that you can build some advanced things and you don't necessarily need to share every single thing with the world. But I think in general, supporting a robust open-source ecosystem is going to be key to maintaining competition and

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 在竞争方面，我确实认为有多家实验室是有益的，而开源在这方面很有帮助。所以我认为开源是其中重要的一环。开源的本质在于有一整个社区的人在做。所以我并不是说我们会是唯一做这件事的公司。我对此也不是什么狂热分子，你知道，我们做的也不全是开源，对吧？我们发布一些开放模型，也做一些闭源的工作。我认为，如果你在经营一家营利公司，你可以开发一些先进的东西，不一定要把每样东西都分享给全世界。但总的来说，我认为支持一个健全的开源生态，将是维持竞争以及

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: maintaining kind of transparency and understandability of where the technology is going, in a way that I think is actually going to be incredibly important for safety. You know, if we have a world where there's just, like, a small number of really capable models—I don't know, it's interesting, right? Right? I mean, if you look at some of the cyber stuff, for example, the instinct—which, I mean, on the one hand, I can understand the instinct of, like, all right, we have this capable cyber model, let's release it so that only, you know, whatever it is, the top hundred institutions get it. But I think part of the issue is that there's more than 100 important institutions in the world.

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 维持技术走向的透明度和可理解性的关键，而我认为这对安全其实极其重要。你知道，如果我们身处一个只有少数几个真正强大模型的世界——我也说不好，这挺有意思的，对吧？对吧？比如看看网络安全方面的一些事，那种本能——一方面我能理解这种本能，就是：好，我们有了这个强大的网络安全模型，发布出去，但只让，不管多少吧，排名前一百的机构拿到。但我认为问题之一在于，世界上重要的机构远不止一百个。

[原文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: So if you look at things like the Hugging Face incident that happened, you know, Hugging Face is maybe not one of the biggest hundred institutions in the world, but it matters, right? It's, like, an important thing that people rely on. And so what did they do when they started detecting that there was this intrusion? They turned to open-source models, because they didn't have access to some of the closed ones that were causing the issues. So I think that having a robust open-source ecosystem is one important part of having kind of a safe and stable future. But to me, the most important thing is just making sure that we distribute the technology widely rather than hoarding it in a small number of people's hands. And I think there's also this ongoing debate in Silicon Valley about why people feel so negatively about AI. I mean, you talk—

[译文] [Mark Zuckerberg]: 比如看看之前发生的 Hugging Face 事件，Hugging Face 也许算不上全球最大的一百家机构之一，但它很重要，对吧？它是大家所依赖的重要存在。那么当他们开始察觉到遭到入侵时，他们做了什么？他们转向了开源模型，因为他们用不上那些引发问题的闭源模型。所以我认为，健全的开源生态是迈向安全稳定未来的重要组成部分。但对我来说，最重要的是确保技术被广泛分发，而不是囤积在少数人手里。而且我觉得硅谷一直在争论，为什么人们对 AI 的观感如此负面。我是说，你聊——