Grady Booch on Software Architecture, Effective Communication, and Computing as a Human Experience

章节 1：记录“计算与人类体验”的宏大叙事

📝 本节摘要：

在访谈的开篇，主持人Daniel介绍了Grady Booch作为软件工程奠基人之一的传奇背景。Grady随后分享了他正在筹备的纪录片项目——《计算与人类体验》（Computing the Human Experience）。该项目的灵感源于计算机历史博物馆（Computer History Museum）的一次对话，旨在打造一部计算领域的《宇宙》（Cosmos）。Grady希望能通过12集的篇幅，梳理计算与人类文明的交织历史，不仅作为他对这一行业的“情书”，更希望通过历史视角（如冯·诺依曼和图灵的早期思想）来缓解公众当下对生成式AI（Generative AI）的恐惧与迷茫，帮助人们在这个技术变革的时代做出更理性的决策。

[原文] [Daniel]: hey everyone this is Daniel coming up with another long form conversation and today my guest is Grady Buch he's a software engineer with more than 50 years of programming experience and he has been foundational to software engineering the modern version that we now enjoy he has worked on critical systems in every conceivable field and uh he's made significant contributions with programming languages and type systems and the UML design language and many many other things he has authored seven books and he's working on two more and he's also working on a documentary called Computing the Human Experience and we cover a lot in this conversation we cover good architecture good thinking principles AI and the role of the software engineer how to think software better communication styles education and a lot more it was a privilege to have him and I hope you'll enjoy the conversation at least as much as I did so please enjoy a fascinating conversation with Grady Buch grady thank you so much for making the time it's an honor to have you

[译文] [Daniel]: 大家好，我是Daniel，又给大家带来了一期长对话节目。今天的嘉宾是Grady Booch，他是一位拥有超过50年编程经验的软件工程师，他是我们今天所享有的现代软件工程的奠基人之一。他在你能想象到的各个领域的关键系统中都工作过，并在编程语言、类型系统、UML设计语言以及许多其他方面做出了重大贡献。他撰写了七本书，目前正在撰写另外两本，同时还在制作一部名为《计算与人类体验》（Computing the Human Experience）的纪录片。在这场对话中我们涵盖了很多内容，包括优秀的架构、优秀的思维原则、人工智能、软件工程师的角色、如何更好地思考软件、沟通风格、教育等等。能邀请到他是我的荣幸，希望大家能像我一样享受这次对话。那么请欣赏这场与Grady Booch的精彩对话。Grady，非常感谢你抽出时间，能邀请你来是我的荣幸。

[原文] [Grady]: my pleasure

[译文] [Grady]: 是我的荣幸。

[原文] [Daniel]: all right so you're known for many things uh and uh you have many significant contributions to the field of um uh software engineering and software architecture but the thing that I wanted to start with is your documentary project can you uh can you tell us what that's about and why you decided to make it

[译文] [Daniel]: 好的，您因许多成就而闻名，并且在软件工程和软件架构领域做出了许多重大贡献。但我想从您的纪录片项目开始聊起。您能告诉我们那是关于什么的吗？以及您为什么决定制作它？

[原文] [Grady]: i was on the board of trustees for the Computer History Museum for about a decade we had just hired our new CEO a gentleman by the name of John Holler john had come from Europe working with PBS and he'd landed a huge deal with the Gates Foundation which enabled the uh the foundation to actually proceed with building the physical displays that you see now so knowing his background I asked him hey John have you ever considered doing something like Carl Sean's Cosmos he paused and said Grady why don't you be our Carl and I paused and said I'm no Sean but that's an intriguing idea so I began the journey of exploring that very thing trying to do a documentary or explore producing a documentary that would examine the intersection of computing and what it meant to be human

[译文] [Grady]: 我曾在计算机历史博物馆（Computer History Museum）的董事会任职大约十年。当时我们要刚聘请了新的CEO，一位名叫John Hollar的先生。John来自欧洲，曾与PBS（美国公共广播公司）合作，他刚与盖茨基金会达成了一项巨额协议，这使得基金会能够真正着手建立你们现在看到的实体展区。得知他的背景后，我问他：“嘿，John，你有没有考虑过做一些像卡尔·萨根（Carl Sagan）的《宇宙》（Cosmos）那样的东西？”他停顿了一下说：“Grady，你为什么不成为我们的卡尔呢？”我也停顿了一下说：“我不是萨根，但这是个有趣的想法。”于是我开始了探索这件事情的旅程，试图制作一部纪录片，或者探索制作一部纪录片，以此来审视计算与“生而为人的意义”之间的交汇点。

[原文] [Grady]: i through the museum gave seven or eight different hour-long lectures just to try out the ideas and eventually came to the conclusion that there are 12 episodes that need to be told here ranging from at the very beginning uh what do we mean by computational thinking versus scientific thinking to the last episodes which address in the presence of uh computing and the computability of the mind which is a topic unto itself self we can speak of uh what does it mean to be human and we'll look at the journey through all of that so the idea being we'll do some history do some science but most of all look at the intersection of computing and humanity so that's the journey I've been on

[译文] [Grady]: 我通过博物馆举办了七八场时长一小时的讲座，只是为了测试这些想法。最终我得出结论，这里有12集的内容需要讲述。从最开始的——哪怕是“计算思维”与“科学思维”有何区别——一直讲到最后几集，探讨在计算和心智可计算性（computability of the mind）存在的情况下——这本身就是一个可以单独探讨的话题——“生而为人”意味着什么。我们将审视这其中的整个旅程。所以这个想法是，我们会讲一些历史，讲一些科学，但最重要的是审视计算与人性的交汇点。这就是我一直在进行的旅程。

[原文] [Grady]: um we worked with KQED the PBS station in the Bay Area they sponsored me for a couple of years and we did a trailer and a teaser and a treatment which we pitched to corporate PBS their reaction was "This is precisely the kind of series to which we aspire go find a producer." So the last several years I've been trying to find a producer co slowed things down uh at the same time I'm working on a book so you know one of these days I hope to have 12 one-hour episodes and a book that's what I'm working on in a way you can think of it as my love lo my love letter to computing it has given so much to me in my life now is my time to step back and express what I have found from it

[译文] [Grady]: 嗯，我们与湾区的PBS电视台KQED合作过，他们赞助了我几年。我们制作了预告片、先导片和一个剧本大纲，并向PBS总部进行了提案。他们的反应是：“这正是我们渴望的那种系列片，去找个制片人吧。”所以过去这几年我一直在试图寻找制片人，新冠疫情让事情慢了下来。与此同时，我也在写一本书。所以你知道，希望有一天我能完成这12集每集一小时的片子和这本书。这就是我正在做的事情。在某种程度上，你可以把它看作是我写给计算领域的一封情书。它在我生命中给予了我太多，现在是我退后一步，表达我从中领悟到什么的时候了。

[原文] [Grady]: i'm in a curious place because I began my career pre- internet i got my first email address in 1979 of all things that was on the arponet and I met many of the foundational folks in computing grace Hopper I didn't meet Turing he was dead by then but I met some of the people that worked with Alan Turing uh lot of folks like that um so that's what I'm working on

[译文] [Grady]: 我处于一个奇特的位置，因为我的职业生涯开始于互联网之前。我在1979年有了我的第一个电子邮件地址，居然还是在阿帕网（ARPANET）上。我见过许多计算领域的奠基人，比如格蕾丝·霍珀（Grace Hopper）。我没见过图灵（Turing），那时他已经去世了，但我见过一些曾与艾伦·图灵共事的人，以及很多像那样的人。嗯，这就是我正在做的事情。

[原文] [Daniel]: uh why do you think is it worth uh preserving this information uh of all the history of computing in this condensed 12-hour episode 12 episode 12 1-hour episode uh form and why uh do you believe is it worth investing so much time and so much effort uh if if my research is correct you've been working on this for many years more than uh 10 decade now yeah Yes why is it worth investing so much to preserve this information in this particular form what do you think

[译文] [Daniel]: 呃，为什么您认为值得用这种浓缩的12小时、12集、每集一小时的形式来保存这些信息——这些计算领域的历史？以及，为什么您认为值得投入这么多的时间和精力？如果我的研究没错的话，您已经为此工作了很多年，超过十年了吧？是的。为什么值得投入这么多去以这种特定的形式保存这些信息？您怎么看？

[原文] [Grady]: an educated population is better able to make decisions about its present and its future and so my intent is to provide that kind of information look today and I'm sure we'll get into it further in the discussion look today at what generative AI has done to the world and I I had a friend of mine she's a priest that that reached out to me shortly after the first chat GPT came and she said she was very worried like what does this mean for us is is super intelligence going to going to take us all over

[译文] [Grady]: 一个受过教育的群体能够更好地对其当下和未来做出决策，所以我的意图就是提供这类信息。看看今天——我相信我们会在之后的讨论中深入探讨——看看今天生成式AI（Generative AI）对世界做了什么。我有一位朋友，她是一名牧师，在ChatGPT刚出来不久后联系了我。她说她非常担心，比如这对我们意味着什么？超级智能是不是要接管我们所有人类了？

[原文] [Grady]: and so having had a perspective for the history of AI and the kinds of things that that John von Noman that Turring himself that others were saying in the early days of AI they are suspiciously important phrases that I think are relevant today as well so it's that kind of history that I think helps inform us and in a way if you look at it from the perspective of the history and science you will see the forces that both shape computing and how computing has shaped us as humanity so in many ways this documentary is an exploration of those forces that I hope will help the current populace understand what it means today

[译文] [Grady]: 因此，拥有AI历史的视角，了解约翰·冯·诺依曼（John von Neumann）、图灵本人以及其他人在AI早期所说过的那些事情——那些都是极为重要的论述，我认为它们在今天依然适用。所以正是这种历史，我认为能给我们带来启示。从某种意义上说，如果你从历史和科学的角度来看，你会看到那些既塑造了计算，又让计算塑造了我们人类的力量。所以在很多方面，这部纪录片是对这些力量的一种探索，我希望能以此帮助当下的民众理解这在今天意味着什么。

[原文] [Grady]: i'm trying to do something much like Sean did that doesn't just you know disappear after a year because oh my gosh this new thing was created but my my study has certainly revealed to me that there are some there's some common threads throughout the history of computing since really the beginnings of computing that still are with us today and therefore they can represent what the future might bring for us in the coming generations

[译文] [Grady]: 我试图做一些像萨根所做的那样的事情，它不会因为“天哪，又有新东西被发明出来了”而在一年后就消失。我的研究明确地向我揭示，自计算诞生之初起，整个计算历史中就存在着一些共同的脉络，它们至今仍伴随着我们，因此它们能够代表未来几代人可能面临的图景。