OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, m

章节 1：开场介绍与新图像模型的病毒式传播

📝 本节摘要：

本章节包含了播客的开场白与正式访谈的破冰部分。OpenAI 首席产品官 Kevin Weil 以一个发人深省的观点开场：我们今天使用的 AI 模型将是我们余生中用过的“最差”的模型，这暗示了技术迭代的惊人速度。主持人 Lenny 随后介绍了 Kevin 的背景（曾任 Instagram、Twitter 产品负责人及 Libra 联合创始人）。在跳过赞助商口播后，访谈以 OpenAI 刚刚发布的新图像生成模型（ImageGen）为切入点。Kevin 分享了该模型在内部测试时的火爆程度，指出“内部使用的病毒式传播”是产品成功的强有力信号，并讨论了模型在风格模仿（如吉卜力风格）和复杂指令遵循方面的突破。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: The AI models that you're using today is the worst AI model you will ever use for the rest of your life, and when you actually get that in your head, it's kind of wild.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 你今天使用的 AI 模型将是你余生中用过的最差的 AI 模型，当你真正理解这一点时，会觉得这有点疯狂。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Everywhere I've ever worked before this, you kind of know what technology you're building on, but that's not true at all with AI.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 在我之前工作过的每一个地方，你某种程度上都知道你是基于什么技术在构建产品，但在 AI 领域完全不是这样。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Every two months, computers can do something they've never been able to do before and you need to completely think differently about what you're doing.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 每隔两个月，计算机就能做一些它们以前从未能做到的事情，你需要完全不同地思考你在做什么。

[原文] [Lenny]: You're chief product officer of maybe the most important company in the world right now. I want to chat about what it's just like to be inside the center of the storm.

[译文] [Lenny]: 你是当今世界上可能最重要的公司的首席产品官。我想聊聊身处风暴中心究竟是什么感觉。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Our general mindset is in two months, there's going to be a better model and it's going to blow away whatever the current set of limitations are.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 我们的普遍心态是，再过两个月，就会有一个更好的模型出现，它将彻底打破当前的各种限制。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: And we say this to developers too. If you're building and the product that you're building is kind of right on the edge of the capabilities of the models, keep going because you're doing something right.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 我们也对开发者这样说。如果你正在构建产品，而这个产品恰好处于当前模型能力的边缘，请继续坚持，因为你做的事情是对的。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Give it another couple months and the models are going to be great, and suddenly the product that you have that just barely worked is really going to sing.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 再给它几个月，模型会变得很棒，突然之间，你那个原本勉强能用的产品就会真正大放异彩。

[原文] [Lenny]: Famously, you led this project at Facebook called Libra.

[译文] [Lenny]: 众所周知，你在 Facebook 领导过一个叫 Libra 的项目。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Libra is probably the biggest disappointment of my career. It fundamentally disappoints me that this doesn't exist in the world today because the world would be a better place if we'd been able to ship that product.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: Libra 可能是原本职业生涯中最大的遗憾。它至今未能存在于世让我深感失望，因为如果我们当时能发布那个产品，世界本该变得更美好。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: We tried to launch a new blockchain. It was a basket of currencies originally. It was integration into WhatsApp and Messenger. I would be able to send you 50 cents in WhatsApp for free.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 我们试图推出一个新的区块链。它最初是一篮子货币。它是集成到 WhatsApp 和 Messenger 中的。原本我应该能在 WhatsApp 里免费给你转 50 美分。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: It should exist. To be honest, the current administration is super friendly to crypto. Facebook's reputation is in a very different place. Maybe they should go build it now.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 它应该存在。老实说，这届政府对加密货币非常友好。Facebook 的声誉也处于一个完全不同的境地。也许他们现在应该去把它做出来。

[原文] [Lenny]: Today my guest is Kevin Weil. Kevin is chief product officer at OpenAI, which is maybe the most important and most impactful company in the world right now, being at the forefront of AI and AGI and maybe someday super intelligence.

[译文] [Lenny]: 今天我的嘉宾是 Kevin Weil。Kevin 是 OpenAI 的首席产品官，这可能是当今世界上最重要、最具影响力的公司，处于 AI、AGI（通用人工智能）甚至未来超级智能的最前沿。

[原文] [Lenny]: He was previously head of product at Instagram and Twitter. He was co-creator of the Libra Cryptocurrency at Facebook, which we chat about.

[译文] [Lenny]: 他此前曾担任 Instagram 和 Twitter 的产品负责人。他也是 Facebook 的 Libra 加密货币的联合创始人，我们稍后会聊到这个。

[原文] [Lenny]: He's also on the boards of Planet and Strava and the Black Product Managers Network and the Nature Conservancy. He's also just a really good guy and he has so much wisdom to share.

[译文] [Lenny]: 他同时也是 Planet、Strava、黑人产品经理网络（Black Product Managers Network）和大自然保护协会（The Nature Conservancy）的董事会成员。他也是个非常好的人，有很多智慧可以分享。

[原文] [Lenny]: We chat about how OpenAI operates, implications of AI and how we will all work and build product, which markets within the AI ecosystem, companies like OpenAI won't likely go after and thus are good places for startups to own.

[译文] [Lenny]: 我们聊到了 OpenAI 如何运作、AI 的影响以及我们将如何工作和构建产品，还有 AI 生态系统中的哪些市场是像 OpenAI 这样的公司不太可能涉足的，因此是初创公司占领的好机会。

[原文] [Lenny]: Also, why learning the craft of writing evals is quickly becoming a core skill for product builders, what skills will matter most in an AI era and what he's teaching his kids to focus on and so much more.

[译文] [Lenny]: 此外，还有为什么学习编写 Evals（评估测试）正在迅速成为产品构建者的核心技能，在 AI 时代什么技能最重要，以及他教导孩子们关注什么，等等。

[原文] [Lenny]: This is a very special episode and I am so excited to bring it to you. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

[译文] [Lenny]: 这是一期非常特别的节目，我很高兴能带给大家。如果你喜欢这个播客，别忘了在你喜欢的播客应用或 YouTube 上订阅和关注。

[原文] [Lenny]: If you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of Perplexity Pro, Linear, Notion Superhuman and Granola. Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle. With that, I bring you Kevin Weil.

[译文] [Lenny]: 如果你成为我时事通讯的年度订阅者，你将获得一年的 Perplexity Pro、Linear、Notion、Superhuman 和 Granola 的免费使用权。请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 并点击 bundle 查看。好了，接下来为您带来 Kevin Weil 的访谈。

[原文] [Lenny]: This episode is brought to you by Eppo. Eppo is a next-generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

[译文] [Lenny]: 本期节目由 Eppo 赞助播出。Eppo 是一个次世代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台，由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队打造。

[原文] [Lenny]: Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments. Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features and Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

[译文] [Lenny]: Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司都依赖 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。实验对于推动增长和理解新功能表现越来越重要，而 Eppo 帮助你提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严谨的深度分析。

[原文] [Lenny]: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

[译文] [Lenny]: 当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的东西之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以轻松地设置实验、排查问题并独自分析表现。

[原文] [Lenny]: Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.

[译文] [Lenny]: Eppo 不仅能做到这些，还拥有先进的统计方法，可以帮你节省数周的实验时间；其易用的用户界面可深入挖掘性能表现，开箱即用的报告功能可帮你避免那些烦人且漫长的分析周期。

[原文] [Lenny]: Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insight with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel. Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

[译文] [Lenny]: Eppo 还让你能轻松与团队分享实验洞察，为 A/B 测试飞轮激发新灵感。Eppo 支持所有用例的实验，包括产品、增长、机器学习、商业化和电子邮件营销。

[原文] [Lenny]: Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity. That's geteppo.com/lenny.

[译文] [Lenny]: 请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将你的实验速度提升 10 倍。网址是 geteppo.com/lenny。

[原文] [Lenny]: This episode is brought to you by Persona, the adaptable identity platform that helps businesses fight fraud, meet compliance requirements, and build trust.

[译文] [Lenny]: 本期节目还由 Persona 赞助播出，这是一个适应性强的身份平台，帮助企业打击欺诈、满足合规要求并建立信任。

[原文] [Lenny]: While you're listening to this right now, how do you know that you're really listening to me, Lenny? These days, it's easier than ever for fraudsters to steal PII, faces and identities. That's where Persona comes in.

[译文] [Lenny]: 当你现在听这个节目时，你怎么知道你真的是在听我，Lenny 说话？如今，欺诈者窃取个人身份信息（PII）、面部特征和身份比以往任何时候都容易。这就是 Persona 发挥作用的地方。

[原文] [Lenny]: Persona helps leading companies like LinkedIn, Etsy, and Twilio securely verify individuals and businesses across the world. What sets Persona apart is its configurability.

[译文] [Lenny]: Persona 帮助 LinkedIn、Etsy 和 Twilio 等领先公司安全地验证世界各地的个人和企业。Persona 的独特之处在于其可配置性。

[原文] [Lenny]: Every company has different needs depending on its industry, use cases, risk tolerance and user demographics. That's why Persona offers flexible building blocks that allow you to build tailored collection and verification flows that maximize conversion while minimizing risks.

[译文] [Lenny]: 每个公司根据其行业、用例、风险承受能力和用户群体的不同而有不同的需求。这就是为什么 Persona 提供灵活的构建模块，允许你构建定制的收集和验证流程，在最小化风险的同时最大化转化率。

[原文] [Lenny]: Plus Persona's orchestration tools automate your identity process so that you can fight rapidly shifting fraud and meet new waves of regulation. Whether you're a startup or an enterprise business, Persona has a plan for you.

[译文] [Lenny]: 此外，Persona 的编排工具将你的身份流程自动化，这样你就可以应对迅速变化的欺诈行为并满足新一波的监管要求。无论你是初创公司还是企业级公司，Persona 都有适合你的方案。

[原文] [Lenny]: Learn more at withpersona.com/lenny. Again, that's withpersona.com/lenny.

[译文] [Lenny]: 更多信息请访问 withpersona.com/lenny。再一次，网址是 withpersona.com/lenny。

[原文] [Lenny]: Kevin, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

[译文] [Lenny]: Kevin，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎来到这个播客。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Thank you so much for having me. We've been talking about doing this forever and we made it happen.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 非常感谢邀请我。我们聊这事儿聊了很久了，终于成行了。

[原文] [Lenny]: We did it. I can't imagine how insane your life is, so I really appreciate that you made time for this and we're actually recording this the week that you guys launched your new image model, which is a happy coincidence.

[译文] [Lenny]: 我们做到了。我无法想象你的生活有多疯狂，所以我真的非常感谢你抽出时间，而且我们录制这期节目的这周恰逢你们发布了新的图像模型，这真是一个愉快的巧合。

[原文] [Lenny]: My entire social feed is filled with ghiblifications of everyone's life and family photos and everything, so good job.

[译文] [Lenny]: 我整个社交媒体的信息流里都充满了大家生活照和全家福的“吉卜力化”（ghiblifications）版本，干得漂亮。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Yep, mine too. My wife, Elizabeth, sent me one of hers, so I'm right there with you.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 是的，我的也是。我妻子 Elizabeth 给我也发了一张她的，所以我深有同感。

[原文] [Lenny]: Let me just ask, did you guys expect this kind of reaction? It feels like this is the most viral thing that's happened in AI, which a high bar since, I don't know, ChatGPT launched. Just like, did you guys expect it to go this well? What does it feel like internally?

[译文] [Lenny]: 我想问一下，你们预料到会有这样的反应吗？感觉这是 AI 领域发生的最具病毒传播性的事情，这是一个很高的门槛，毕竟之前还有 ChatGPT 的发布。你们预期到会这么火吗？内部感觉如何？

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: There have been a handful of times in my career when you're working on a product internally and the internal usage just explodes. This was true by the way when we were building stories at Instagram.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 在我的职业生涯中，有少数几次当你正在内部开发一个产品时，内部的使用量就突然爆发了。顺便说一句，当我们当初在 Instagram 开发 Stories（快拍）功能时也是这种情况。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: More than anything else in my career, we could feel it was going to work because we were all using it internally and we'd go away for a weekend.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 这种感觉比我职业生涯中任何其他时候都强烈，我们能感觉到它会成功，因为我们所有人都在内部使用它，即使是在周末离开公司的时候。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Before it launched we were all using it and we'd come back after a weekend and we would know what was going on and be like, "Oh, hey, I saw you were at that camping trip, how was that?" You were like, "Man, this thing really works."

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 在发布之前我们都在用，周末回来后我们都知道发生了什么，会说：“嘿，我看你去露营了，怎么样？”你会觉得：“天哪，这东西真管用。”

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: ImageGen was definitely one of those, so we'd been playing with it for, I don't know, a couple months and when it first went live internally to the company, there was kind of a little gallery where you could generate your own, you could also see what everyone else was generating and it was just nonstop buzz.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: ImageGen（图像生成）绝对属于这一类，我们大概玩了几个月吧。当它第一次在公司内部上线时，有一个小画廊，你可以生成自己的图，也可以看到其他人在生成什么，整个氛围一直非常热闹。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: So yeah, we had a sense that this was going to be a lot of fun for people to play with.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 所以是的，我们有一种预感，这东西会让大家玩得很开心。

[原文] [Lenny]: That's really cool. That should be a measure of just confidence into something going well that you're launching is internally everyone's going crazy for it.

[译文] [Lenny]: 真酷。这应该成为衡量产品发布能否成功的一个信心指标，那就是内部每个人都为之疯狂。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Yeah. Especially social things because you have a very tight network as a company socially, so you know each other and you're experts in your product hopefully.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 是的。尤其是社交类产品，因为作为一家公司，你们在社交上有一个非常紧密的网络，你们彼此认识，而且希望你们都是自己产品的专家。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: And so there's some sense in which if you're doing something social and it's not taking off internally, you might question what you're doing.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 所以从某种意义上说，如果你在做一个社交产品，但它在内部都没有火起来，你可能会质疑自己在做什么。

[原文] [Lenny]: Yeah, and by the way, the Ghibli thing, is that something you guys seeded or how did that even start? Was that an intentional example?

[译文] [Lenny]: 是的，顺便问一下，那个吉卜力（Ghibli）风格的事情，是你们预埋的彩蛋吗？还是怎么开始的？是有意的示例吗？

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: I think it's just the style people love and the model is really capable at emulating style or understanding what... It's very good at instruction following.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 我觉得那只是人们喜欢的风格，而且这个模型非常擅长模仿风格或者理解……它非常擅长遵循指令。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: That's actually something that I think people... I'm starting to see people discover with it, but you can do very complex things.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 这实际上是我认为人们……我开始看到人们正在发现的一点，你可以用它做非常复杂的事情。

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: You can give it two images, one is your living room and the other is a whole bunch of photos or memorabilia or things you want and you say, "Tell me how you would arrange these things."

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 你可以给它两张图，一张是你客厅的照片，另一张是一堆照片或纪念品或你想要的东西，然后你说：“告诉我你会怎么摆放这些东西。”

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: Or you can say, "I'd like you to show me what this will look like if you put this over here and this thing to the right of that and this one to the left of this, but under that one."

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 或者你可以说：“我想让你展示一下，如果你把这个放在这里，那个放在那东西的右边，这个放在那个的左边但在这个的下面，看起来会是什么样。”

[原文] [Kevin Weil]: And the model actually will understand all of that and do it. It's incredibly powerful. So I'm just excited about all the different things people are going to figure out.

[译文] [Kevin Weil]: 模型实际上能理解所有这些要求并执行出来。它极其强大。所以我对人们将会探索出的各种玩法感到非常兴奋。

[原文] [Lenny]: Yeah. All right. Well, good job. Good job team OpenAI. Let's get serious here and let's zoom out a little bit.

[译文] [Lenny]: 是的。好了，干得好。OpenAI 团队干得好。让我们严肃一点，把视角拉远一点。