We're All Addicted To Claude Code

章节 1：从“马拉松”到“仿生膝盖”——Claude Code 与 CLI 的复兴

📝 本节摘要：

本节作为访谈开篇，主持人介绍了前 OpenAI Codex 创始成员 Kelvin French。Gary Tan 分享了自己从“代码马拉松选手”因管理工作被迫退役，如今借助 Claude Code 像装上了“仿生膝盖”般重返编程一线的经历。对话深入探讨了一个反直觉的现象：在 AI 时代，复古的命令行界面（CLI）因其对代理（Agent）的友好性和组合性，意外击败了被视为未来的集成开发环境（IDE），成为开发者的新宠。

[原文] [Host]: i feel like when I'm using quad code it's like oh I feel like I'm flying through the code when it's in your CLI this thing can debug nested delayed jobs like five levels in and figure out what the bug was and then write a test for it and it never happens again this is insane i think everyone who's experimenting with this stuff on like a hobbyist level or at like a very small startup they're just pushing the coding agents as far as they can go because it's like you don't really have time to figure out anything else like as a startup you have limited runway you're just going to orient around speed i think at a bigger company you have a lot more to lose what are some of the tips to become a top 1% user of coding agents yeah what's your stack hey everyone welcome back to another episode of the Ly Cone gary are you are you ready to record

[译文] [Host]: 我感觉当我使用 Claude Code（注：原文误听为 quad code）时，就像在代码中飞行一样。当它在你的命令行界面（CLI）中运行时，这家伙可以调试嵌套了五层深的延迟任务，找出 Bug 是什么，然后为它编写测试，确保它不再发生，这太疯狂了。我认为每一个在业余水平或非常小的初创公司试验这些东西的人，都在尽可能地挖掘编程代理（Coding Agents）的极限，因为你真的没有时间去搞清楚其他事情。作为一家初创公司，你的资金跑道有限，你只能以速度为导向。我认为在大公司，你有更多东西可能会失去。成为前 1% 的编程代理用户的秘诀是什么？你的技术栈是什么？大家好，欢迎回到新一期的 Lightcone（注：原文误听为 Ly Cone）。Gary，你准备好录制了吗？

[原文] [Gary]: i'm I'm in plan mode right now but okay yeah I guess it's time sorry about that

[译文] [Gary]: 我现在正处于“规划模式”，不过好吧，我想是时候了，抱歉。

[原文] [Host]: well welcome to another episode of the light cone and today we have an incredible guest Kelvin French Owen he's one of the first people to create codecs at OpenAI and before that he started Segment which is multi-billion dollar company that got to a very successful exit kelvin welcome back

[译文] [Host]: 欢迎回到新一期的 Lightcone，今天我们请到了一位不可思议的嘉宾 Kelvin French Owen。他是 OpenAI Codex 的首批缔造者之一，在那之前他创立了 Segment，这是一家价值数十亿美元并在最后成功退出的公司。Kelvin，欢迎回来。

[原文] [Kelvin]: thanks for having me

[译文] [Kelvin]: 谢谢邀请。

[原文] [Gary]: i guess what a crazy time for all of us uh I recently got very very addicted to Claude Code and uh I would describe it as like 10 years ago I was a marathon runner and I love doing it and then I suffered a catastrophic knee injury which is called manager mode and I uh stopped coding which is tragic and horrible uh but now the last nine days have been like this incredible unlock of all the things I remember being able to do and it's like you know I got a new total knee replacement and actually it's a bionic knee and it allows me to run five times faster what's your take on it because you're I mean right out there at the forefront of it i mean codeex pioneered all of the a lot of the ideas that now like everyone still uses and codeex is still evolving too

[译文] [Gary]: 对于我们所有人来说，这真是一个疯狂的时刻。我最近对 Claude Code 非常非常上瘾。我会这样描述它：10 年前我是一名马拉松跑者，我热爱跑步，然后我遭遇了一次灾难性的膝盖受伤，这种伤叫做“经理模式”（Manager Mode），于是我停止了写代码，这是悲剧且可怕的。但在过去的九天里，就像是一次不可思议的解锁，唤醒了我记忆中所有能做的事情。这就像我换了一个全新的膝关节置换，而且实际上是一个“仿生膝盖”，它让我跑得比以前快五倍。你对此有什么看法？因为你是身处最前沿的人。我的意思是，Codex 开创了许多现在大家仍在使用的理念，而且 Codex 也在不断进化。

[原文] [Kelvin]: for brief context when I was at openai um I was working on the codeex web project at the time cursor was out in the market and they had kind of built this shim around I think it was set 3.5 and it was able to work in your IDE fod code had just come out uh and it was working as a CLI and we kind of had this idea like hey in the future coding is really going to feel more like talking to a co-orker like you're going to send off a question and then they'll go off and do something and come back to you with a PR uh and so that's where we started with this web view uh and that's what we were building i think directionally that's still kind of correct for where things should go but obviously now everyone is coding with CLIs instead like they're using those tools a lot more whether it's cloud code or whether it's codecs

[译文] [Kelvin]: 简单介绍一下背景，当我在 OpenAI 时，我正在负责 Codex Web 项目。当时 Cursor 已经上市了，他们围绕 GPT-3.5（注：原文误听为 set 3.5）构建了一个垫片层（Shim），使其能够在你的 IDE（集成开发环境）中工作。当时 Claude Code（注：原文误听为 fod code）刚刚推出，它是作为一个 CLI（命令行界面）运行的。我们当时有一种想法，觉得未来的编程真的会更像是与同事交谈：你发送一个问题，然后他们离开去做些什么，最后带回一个 PR（Pull Request，代码合并请求）给你。这就是我们从 Web 视图开始构建的原因。我认为从方向上讲，这对于未来的发展仍然是正确的，但显然现在大家都在用 CLI 写代码，人们更多地使用这些工具，无论是 Claude Code 还是 Codex。

[原文] [Kelvin]: and I think at least for me kind of the lesson in that is I think in some sense you're right that like everyone is going to become a manager in the future or at least that's my hottake but in order to get there there are steps along the way and you have to really build a lot of trust in the model and understand what it's doing

[译文] [Kelvin]: 对我来说，其中的教训是，我认为在某种意义上你是对的，未来每个人都会成为“经理”，或者至少这是我的暴论。但为了达到那个目标，中间还有很多步骤，你必须真正建立对模型的信任，并理解它在做什么。

[原文] [Host]: you recently came over to cloud code what's the transition been like in terms of as using it as your you know one of your stacks

[译文] [Host]: 你最近转到了 Claude Code（注：原文误听为 cloud code），把它作为你的技术栈之一使用，这个转变过程是怎样的？

[原文] [Kelvin]: yeah yeah so cloud code is uh certainly my kind of like daily driver today and honestly this has switched every few months uh for a while I was deeply in cursor i think their new model which is really fast is actually quite good then I kind of moved over to quad code especially with Opus cloud code is a really interesting product and I think it's underrated how good the both product and model are working together if you study them closely

[译文] [Kelvin]: 是的，Claude Code 确实是我现在的日常主力工具。老实说，这每隔几个月就会变一次。有一段时间我深度使用 Cursor，我觉得他们的新模型非常快，确实相当不错。然后我有点转向了 Claude Code（注：原文误听为 quad code），特别是配合 Opus 模型。Claude Code 是一个非常有趣的产品，如果你仔细研究它们，你会发现它的产品和模型配合得有多好，这一点被低估了。

[原文] [Kelvin]: I think one of the things that claude code does in particular that's really amazing is split up context well and so if you look at uh I don't know things like skills or sub agents like when you ask cla code to do something it will typically spawn an explore sub agent or like multiple ones and basically each of those are running haik coup to traverse the file system and kind of like explore what's there and they're doing it in their own context window

[译文] [Kelvin]: 我认为 Claude Code 做得特别好的一点是它很好地拆分了上下文。如果你观察它的技能或子代理（Sub-agents），当你要求 Claude Code 做某事时，它通常会生成一个“探索子代理”或多个子代理。基本上每一个子代理都在运行 Haiku 模型来遍历文件系统，探索那里的内容，并且它们是在各自独立的上下文窗口中进行这些操作的。

[原文] [Kelvin]: and I think enthropic has kind of like figured something out here around given a task does that task fit in the context window or should I actually like split it into many more and the models are like insanely good at this which I think gives them really good results and I think the fascinating thing is because it's on the terminal is the purest form for composible atomic integrations because if you came from ID first world which is where cursor was and I suppose codeex too this concept of uh finding the context more free form wouldn't come out so natural right string which is so unique yeah

[译文] [Kelvin]: 我认为 Anthropic 在这方面想明白了一些事情，即给定一个任务，该任务是否适合放入上下文窗口，还是应该将其拆分成更多部分？模型在这方面表现得好得惊人，这给它们带来了非常好的结果。我认为最迷人的一点是，因为它在终端（Terminal）上运行，这是可组合原子集成的最纯粹形式。因为如果你来自“IDE 优先”的世界——这也是 Cursor 和我想 Codex 所在的地方——这种更自由形式地寻找上下文的概念就不会那么自然地出现。

[原文] [Gary]: and I personally I was surprised I don't know how you all feel but I was surprised that like weird it's like a weird retro future that like the CLI which are the technology from 20 years ago have somehow beaten out all the actual ideides which were supposed to be the future

[译文] [Gary]: 我个人感到很惊讶，不知道你们感觉如何，但这就像一个奇怪的“复古未来”（Retro Future）：20 年前的技术——命令行界面（CLI），不知何故击败了所有本该代表未来的集成开发环境（IDE）。

[原文] [Kelvin]: 100% yeah and I I think it's important actually to claude code that it's not an IDE because it sort of distances you from the code that's being written like IDEs are all about exploring files right and you're like trying to keep all the state in your head and understand what's going on but the fact that a CLI is like a totally different thing means that they have a lot more freedom in terms of how it feels and I I don't know about you but I feel like when I'm using cloud code it's like oh I feel like I'm flying through the code you know it's like there's all sorts of things going there's like little progress indicators it's kind of like giving me status updates but like the code that's being written is not the front and center thing

[译文] [Kelvin]: 100% 同意。而且我认为对于 Claude Code 来说，它不是一个 IDE 这一点其实很重要，因为它某种程度上让你与正在编写的代码保持了距离。IDE 的核心在于浏览文件，对吧？你需要试图把所有状态保持在脑子里，理解正在发生什么。但 CLI 是一个完全不同的东西，这意味着它们在体验上有更多的自由度。我不知道你怎么想，但我感觉当我使用 Claude Code 时，就像我在代码中飞行一样。你知道，有各种事情在发生，有小进度条，它在给我状态更新，但正在编写的代码本身并不是最核心的焦点。

[原文] [Gary]: i mean dev environments are so messy i mean I really like how clean a sandbox conceptually is but then I just ran into all these crazy issues like trying to do just simple testing right it needs to access Postgress and then it can't do it or you know my codeex.md ended up being 20 lines long and even then it didn't work when it's in your CLI it could just access your development database i mean I'm not sure if I'm supposed to do this but I've actually also had it access my production database to do and uh it can just do it it's like yeah okay here like I looked into it and I think this happened and I'm going to debug this you know concurrency issue i was like oh my god like this thing can debug nested delayed jobs like five levels in and figure out what the bug was and then write a test for it and it never happens again this is insane

[译文] [Gary]: 我的意思是，开发环境太混乱了。我很喜欢沙箱（Sandbox）在概念上的整洁，但我随后遇到了一堆疯狂的问题，比如试图做简单的测试，它需要访问 Postgres 数据库但做不到，或者你知道，我的 codeex.md 文件写了 20 行长，结果还是不工作。而当它在你的 CLI 中运行时，它可以直接访问你的开发数据库。我不确定我是否应该这样做，但我实际上甚至让它访问了我的生产数据库去做事，而它真的能做到。它就像是：“好的，我看了一下，我觉得发生了这种情况，我要去调试这个并发问题。”我就想：“天哪，这东西可以调试嵌套了五层深的延迟任务，找出 Bug 是什么，然后为它编写测试，确保它不再发生。”这太疯狂了。

[原文] [Gary]: yeah and I think that distribution mode is frankly underrated like thinking about a cursor or a cloud code or a codec CLI the fact that you can just download it and use it without having to get it permissions or anything makes a huge difference and actually I was playing around with a product the other day where you download a desktop app and then it execs the clawed code that you have running on your laptop and uses that and communicates back via an MCP server to the desktop product mhm and it's like this is a very interesting way of now starting to work with your laptop where you don't have to get anyone's permission to do it you just download the product and go

[译文] [Gary]: 是的，而且坦率地说，我认为这种分发模式被低估了。想想 Cursor、Claude Code 或 Codex CLI，事实上你可以直接下载并使用它，而无需获取许可或任何东西，这产生了巨大的差异。实际上前几天我在试用一个产品，你下载一个桌面应用，然后它会执行你在笔记本电脑上运行的 Claude Code，利用它并通过 MCP（Model Context Protocol）服务器与桌面产品通信。这就像是一种非常有趣的现在开始使用笔记本电脑工作的方式，你不需要获得任何人的许可，只需下载产品就可以开始。